threat of cybercriminals. this runs two hours and 10 minutes.

>> before we get started, i want to remind everyone on the committee we have our bipartisan christmas party december 11 at 4:00 p.m. right here in this room so hope everybody can come. good morning, everyone. i now call the committee on small business to order. with that, the chair is authorized to call a recess at any time. i want to congratulate my friend, ranking nebraska velasquez as she'll be retiring at the end of the 112th congress. i'm looking forward to continuing working next to her through the end of this congress. thank you for your patriotism.

>> thank you, mr. chairman. it has been the honor of my life being here and serving for small businesses. >> and she likes orange. i now recognize myself for my opening state. welcome to today's hearing entitled main street under attack: the cost of crime on small business.

the day before thanksgiving last week, no national guardsmen were tragically shot. unfortunately major beck strom lost her life and another continues to fight for his. thank you for those who have traveled to be here. main street businesses are under attack in any places across the tun. country.

as a small business owner myse in the car as a car dealer in the car industry. we've been seeing an uptick in stolen inventory and cyberattacks. thi increased crime has devastating impact on our operations. these costs cannot be passed on to th consumer. unfortunately, the crime is being fueled by political choices that embrace soft on crime policies at the expense of hardworking americans. policies like cashless bail. defunding the police, prosecutional decisions that fail to impose consequence for repeat offenders make it extremely difficult for mom and pop shops to operate. all too often we see headlines of repea offenders committing horrific crimes. in charlotte, a 23-year-old ukrainian refugee was commuting home from her wor at a pizzeria when she was horrifically stabbed in the neck. the murder had 14 arrests and last month a 26-year-old woman was set on fire in the chicago subway by a man who had 53 criminal cases against him with only two resulting in jail time. this should not be possible in a civilized society so even more alarming, statistics from government

agencies are likely missing thi spike in crime. more than half of the small business, small businesses don't bother reporting thefts anymore becaus of the limited police response. and crime creates uncertainty, raises costs, and drives away customers. when small business owners are forced to install expensive security systems, loc goods away on shelves, and brac for a daily theft, they divert capital from hiring, expanding, and innovating. these challenge are not limited limited to physical crime. cybercrime is growing and significant to main street. small businesses are 210% more likely to experience cyberattack than large companie simply because they lack the resources to implement strong cybersecurity policies. attackers know this, and our foreign adversaries knowingly target smaller companies becaus

they assume a weaker defense an faster payout. as artificial intelligence becomes increasingly prevalent, small businesses are at a greater ris of the ai generated emails, impersonation schemes, and scams. that is why i'm thankful that president trump is taking decisive action to make america safe again. president trump is restoring law and order to cities across the country and taking decisive action to deter cybercriminals by reversing the weak biden harris era mandates. by restoring law and order, strengthening cybersecurity, an reversing failed soft on crime policies, republicans are givin small business the stability an confidence they need to grow, compete, and succeed. i want to thank all of you again for joining us today and i look forward to the conversation ahead. and now i yield to my friend, ranking member from new york, mr. velasquez. thank you, mr. chairman, and thank you to all the witnesses for being her this morning. unlike large corporations, small businesses often lack the resources, expertise, and experience to address and recover from a crime. in cyberspace, a hitchcock study found that 41% of small businesses were victim of a cyber attack in 2023, with a median cost of 8300. dollars. these attacks on main street

america, such as ransomware, data breaches, and email compromises result in business operation disruptions and the theft of valuable assets and funds. under my leadership, congress passed the bipartisan small business cyber training act of 2022, which president biden. signing to law requiring small business development centers to train and certified staff to provide cybersecurity counseling to small businesses. democrats remain committed to supporting and expanding cybersecurity resources for small businesses, and in real life, public safety has been a hot button issue since the onse of the covid pandemic. under th

previous administration, democrats made landmark investment in keeping our community safe. the american rescue plan act gave $15 billio to states and cities for their police forces and violent crime prevention. similarly, the landmark bipartisan safer communities act closed key firearm safety loopholes and appropriated $13 billion to law enforcement. and community violence intervention programs keeping guns and violent crime off our streets. in fact, over 700 defendants have been charge on their offenses created by th bsca, including traffickers linked to transnational cartels and narco and narcotic distributors. in other words, democrats are

serious about safety. but it seems that the trump administration is not under president trump, the cybersecurity and infrastructur security agency. lay off a thir of its workforce, firing dedicated experts who kept our nation and main street safe fro cyber attacks, and his allies i congress neglected key federal cybersecurity provisions. they failed to reauthorize a key cyber intelligence sharing law putting our cyber community in the dark about significant cybe threats, and they allowed the state and local cybersecurity grant program to expire. at the department of justice, presiden trump revoked $500 million in grants to programs carrying out vital work in violent crime prevention, policing and prosecution, victim and survivo support, juvenile justice and child protection and corrections. he also rescinded

regulations making highly. lethal firearm attachments harder to obtain, empowering violent criminals across the country. for his part, the trum doj claims that it will focus o law enforcement operations, combating violent crime, protecting american children, supporting american victims of trafficking and sexual assault, and promoting. coordination of law enforcement efforts at all levels of government, but clearly actions speak louder than words. president trump's crime control cuts targeted empirically proven programs designed to achieve his stated goals and ultimately hurt law enforcement and their ability to fright crime.

stow real solutions, president trump wielding racist rhetoric and sensationalized stories has deployed federal agents and troops to roam the streets of america city, where violent crime levels are at low, unseen in this century, wasting valuable resources for photo ops. president trump has chosen to make america more dangerous and exploit the problem of crim for political gain. main street is under attack. all right. republicans think a hearing lik this can help them rationalize their agenda and impose draconian fascist policies upon the american people. so to everyone watching. don't be fooled. the federal government can act to improve our public safety by protecting and expanding upon the investment w know work. so today i hope we can refocus the conversation an the administration can refocus their attention on what will meaningfully improve safety for small businesses and their

please. i yield back. >> the gentle lady yields back. i will now introduce our witnesses. our first witness here with us today is mr. tom wickham. mr. wickham is the vice president and managing director of government affairs for the us chamber of commerce right here in washington dc for over 25 years, mr. wickham worked on capitol hill. many of you know him, beginning under speaker newt gingrich and concluding under speaker nancy pelosi, including serving as a parliamentarian of the us house of representatives. he is recipient of the speaker, john w. mccormick award of excellence, serves on the advisory board of the center of effective lawmaking partnership between the university of virginia and vanderbilt university, and they're doing pretty good, aren't they, right now? you got two winners there and volunteers as a citizenship teacher in the community. mr. wickham, ambassador of arts in political science and governmen from the university of iowa and the jd from the university of iowa college of law. we want to thank you for being with us today, tom. our next witness here with us today is ms. lisa

plagemeyer, uh, and, uh, ms. plaggemeyer is executive director of the national cybersecurity alliance, uh, based in austin, texas. uh, ms. ms. plameyer began her career with ford motor company and later advanced into technology, marketing, and cybersecurity leadership roles at cdk uh global, infosec, and metaro. sh serves on the us secret service or secret service cyber investigations advisory board, is a volunteer advisory board member at identity theft resource center and is a two-time recipient of the cso award. ms ms. plameyer earned a bachelor of arts from the university of michigan, uh, majoring in marketing, psychology, and german. we appreciate you being here today our next witness is mr. i'm gonna get it right now, rag

calib. gian ok, got it. mr. callabajian is the owner of henry's house of coffee, a 3rd generation coffee business in san francisco. before returning to the family business, mr. callabajian spent over a decade in corporate finance and analytics, including roles at aaa, blue shield of california, and optimum health behavioral solutions. mr. calabrian has joined the coffee shop full tim in 2013 and is a certified specialty coffee sensory and analysis. and a member of the u chamber of commerce small business council, uh, mr. calabbajian earned a bachelor o arts in in in economics from th university of california davis and a master of business administration in finance from san francisco state university. i want to thank you for joining us today and i'm looking forwar to our conversation. and with that, i now recognize ranking member from new york, ms. velasquez, to briefly introduce our last witness appearing before us today. thank you, mr. sherman. mr. gregory jackson jr is the founder and owner of safer futures llc, a policy and strategic consulting firm

specializing in violent crime reduction and prevention. mr. jackson's expertise on gun violence began in 2013 when he was shot and seriously wounded as an innocent bystander. that moment gave him his mission to ensure no family, business owner, or community will ever endure the pain he did. eventually, mr. jackson was appointed to the previous administration as a deputy director of the hawaii house. o office of gun violence prevention and special assistan to the president in these roles he helped implement the bipartisan safer communities ac and oversaw the expansion of community violence intervention resources in the federal government. mr. jackson holds a bachelor's degree in government from the university of virginia and is currently studying for a

master of public health degree at yale university. welcome mr. jackson, and good luck with you master. thank you again to all of you. we appreciate all of yo being here today. now, before recognizing the witnesses, i would like to remind them that their old testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in length, and we do stick with that. uh, if you see the light turn red in front of you, it means that your 5 minutes, uh, has concluded and you should wrap up your testimony. and if you still keep talking, you'll hear this. that means quit talking, ok? and i now with tha in mind, i now recognize mr. wickham for his 5 minute openin remarks. good morning, everyone and thank you for inviting me t participate in this hearing. my name is tom wickham. i'm vice president and managing director of government affairs at the us chamber of commerce. i've been at the us chamber since 2021. from 1995 through 2021, i serve in the house parliamentarians office. where i had the honor o

advising many of you on your constitutional and institutiona responsibilities. the us chambe of commerce is the world's largest business organization, representing companies of all sizes, including small and mid-sized businesses. we also have local chambers of commerce and leading industry associations as members. the chamber serves as the voice of american business in washington across the country and across the globe. since 2021. i have visited communities throughout the country meeting with policymakers, law enforcement, prosecutors, and businesses to find solutions to the complex problems of crimes against businesses. the us chamber is committed to working with this committee and small businesses to combat crime and its negativ

impact on communities. while higher profile crimes and finge pointing often grab the headlines, small businesses continue to struggle with risin business-focused crimes. retail crimes like organized shoplifting rings and smash and grabs have been persistent problems for america's businesses. crime numbers often fluctuate from year to year, bu the long term trends are clear here with larcenies involving shoplifting having doubled sinc the 1970s, according to statistics from the nonprofit council for criminal justice. the effect of retail crime is widespread, with innocent consumers, employees, and business owners bearing the financial and societal costs. retail crime creates higher prices for consumers, results i stores having to close their

doors, and communities are left without vital goods and services. cargo theft is anothe rising concern for the business community. cargo theft is increasing rapidly with a significant shift toward sophisticated fraud and deception tactics. cargo theft results in higher costs throughout the supply chain, ultimately impacting small business shippers and retailers the latest numbers from cargo net show a 13% increase. in cargo theft incidents in the 2n quarter of 2025/2024 following record high numbers of cargo theft incidents in 2023 and 2024. unfortunately, texas is a the center of the problem with texas, illinois, and california as the top three states for cargo theft, with 53% of

incidents occurring in those states. and crimes against smal businesses are not just a matte of national statistics but affect all businesses at the local level. haragallabijan wil testify to the continued problems plaguing his family-ru coffee shop in california. harrag is a proud member of our us chamber of small business council, where unfortunately, these stories are all too common. and often include businesses in texas and in new york. according to a texas stud led by their comptroller's office, organized retail theft cost businesses in the state of texas, over $421 million annually. these skyrocketing costs are in addition to the mental impact on small businesses owners and employees the us chamber has summoned policymakers and the business

community to join us in our three-part call to action for improved coordination, aggregation, and prosecution in combating crimes against businesses. the us chamber stands ready to partner with this committee to pass effectiv laws and policies to combat crime and ensure our communitie are safe. i am happy to take questions at the appropriate time. thank you very much and now recognize ms. plagemeyer fo her five minute opening remarks >> chairman williams, ranking member velasquez and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to provide testimon today. i greatly appreciate the committee, including cybersecurity, in this discussion. the national cybersecurity alliance is a nonprofit on a mission to educate people on how to protec themselves from cybercrime, scams, and fraud. from families to fortune 500s and everyone in between, we work to make cybersecurity easier and more

accessible. we reach millions o people with our campaigns on everything from ai deep fakes t avoiding scams like pig butchering. i haven't always worked in cybersecurity. i spen the 1st 15 years of my career i a large enterprise working with small businesses, car dealers. learned firsthand the importanc of small businesses to their communities and the value of partnership between the factory and the franchise. cybersecurit is not just a technical issue, it's a business risk that small businesses can learn to manage. the majority of security incidents are not technology failures. they're people and process failures. many incident have poor basic it management a their root cause, like employee using the same passwords on multiple accounts, a lack of multi-factor authentication or mfa, operating systems that are out of date, and vulnerable software that goes unpatched. there are a few myths we regularly hear from small businesses. myth, i just don't think i'm on the radar of the bad guys. 81% of small businesses have experienced a cyber incident. businesses with fewer than 100 employees are no 2.5 times more likely to be

targeted than those with more than 500 employees. small businesses are also targeted by scammers because they don't monitor for brand abuse like large organizations. according to visa, fraud has evolved from being opportunistic. it's now strategic, automated, and scalable. we're entering an era where nothing can be trusted at face value. ai enables the creation of synthetic content, fake merchant websites, fake identities, fake chat agents that are all indistinguishable from legitimate businesses. myt we don't have anything of value to the cybercriminals. from my auto experience, i can tell you that the average car dealer has 50,000 consumer records that include social security numbers driver's license numbers, and more. each of those records is worth hundreds of dollars on th dark web. small business intellectual property is also very valuable to nation state actors like the people's republic of china. there are multiple examples of small businesses operating in highly specialized niche markets whose businesses have been threatened when their ip was stolen by the prc, who then spun up a low cos competitor producing the same highly specialized product at a fraction of the cost. i've met small business owner who is the

only manufacturer in the us of piece of equipment necessary to road paving, who said to me, wh would china attack us? he had n understanding of the risk of ip theft to his business. i've met a small business in a highly specialized segment who unknowingly employed a chinese spy for years. they didn't know it until the spy went to work for a large enterprise that detected the espionage quickly. the chinese national was convicted, but the small business still doesn't know wha ip was stolen from them because they had no monitoring in place at the time they employed him. state actors are also increasingly targeting small businesses because they are entry points into supply chains russia and china patiently make multiple hops through smaller companies to get to their desired target. myth, i've got guy, an it guy. in our experience, small business owners don't know enough about cyber to manage it as a functio of their business. they know enough about finance, for example, to have a meaningful conversation with their accountant, but the same is not true with their it person. smal businesses don't manage, but they don't understand. so our cybersecure my business program educates owners using business

terminology they can understand so they can better manage risk. myth, cybersecurity is too expensive. my it person just wants to spend money. again, this lack of education and communication. one example i heard at a car dealership involved an end of life pc in the parts department running windows xp, introducing vulnerabilities into the dealer when the it manager asked the owner to replace the pc, the owner said the parts manager says it works just fine, declining to make the investment. the failure was a lack of communication on the amount of risk to the business that that old pc represented. s all these myths point to a dangerous disconnect between th perception of risk and the adoptions of basic security controls like mfa. we believe that public-private partnership are an effective and efficient way to help small businesses learn to better protect themselves. according to our research, most people don't tur to the federal government for

advice and guidance. they look to the private sector companies vendors, nonprofits. our cybersecure my business live taught remote course is just 1 hour a week for 6 weeks. cybersecurity does not have to be as intimidating and confusin as people perceive it to be. education works. we stand ready to work with federal agencies t better educate small businesses on how to avoid being victimize by cybercrime, ip theft, and scams. through partnerships lik cooperative agreements between nonprofits and government. we can work more efficiently and effectively than government can alone. we are stronger together i would like to thank the committee and offer our ongoing partnership to support america' small businesses. thank you ver much. i now recognize mr. calebjian for his 5 minute opening remarks. chairman, ranking member, and members of the committee. thank you for th opportunity to testify today. m name is hara caleb john, and i' the 3rd generation owner of henry's house of coffee, a smal batch family owned coffee roaster that's been a part of san francisco's sunset since 1965. our business was founded by my father and grandfather wh immigrated to the united states from lebanon. for decades, our

shop has been a place where generations of neighbors gathered, share stories, and feel a sense of community over cup of coffee roasted on site. in recent years, however, that sense of community and safety has eroded under the weight of rising crime and lawlessness that small business owners like myself face daily. about 2 year ago, a mentally unstable individual began repeatedly stealing from my store. he come in, takes drinks or food from our refrigerator case, sometime 3 times a week, and occasionall steals from our tip jar. on multiple occasions, he's harassed me and my staff, once even attempting to spit in my face. he's stolen from us more than 35 times. repeat offenders not only hurt the bottom line but drive away loyal customers and endanger staff. i called th police numerous times. officers respond quickly and i can tell

they want to help, but they've told me their hands are tied. one officer advised me that my best option was to file a restraining order. i filed one, but enforcement has proven impossible. he returns repeatedly, and the police can' take meaningful action. for employees and customers, this isn't about the cost of stolen goods. it's about safety. i constantly remind my staff not to intervene because no one cup of coffee is worth someone getting hurt. yet some of our loyal customers feel so protective of our shop that they've tried to stop the thief themselves. my worst nightmare is that something will happen t my employees or to my customers the toll this criminal activity goes far beyond dollars. it's exhausting, demoralizing, and deeply discouraging to work har every day. only to feel that th system no longer values your contribution. we've installed metal gates on our storefront, shatterproof window screens replace stolen equipment such a

cash registers and ipads, all costly measures for a small business still recovering from the pandemic. our shop even built a parklet during covid so neighbors could enjoy coffee. but it's frequently vandalized. between security costs, repairs we spent thousands simply to stay operational while watching nearby businesses close due to the same issues. san francisco' sunset district was once a quiet, family-centered neighborhood. since the pandemic, criminal activity tha was once concentrated downtown has spread into our residential communities. break-ins, vandalism, and theft are not common topics of neighborhood conversation. the closure of a nearby essential business like the only local pharmacy shows how crime affects not just merchants but the very fabric o the community. when businesses close, blight follows vacant storefronts attract more crime, and a cycle of decay begins. each closure represents a lost opportunity for community

connection and economic resilience. at the heart of thi problem are policy failures. local prosecutors constrained b political and legal choices rarely pursue these cases. police officers, many of whom are empathetic and dedicated, feel demoralized. from a business owner's perspective, the absence of local leadership compounds these problems. our city supervisors have rarely visited our shop. promises are made about prioritizing public safety, but in practice, laws and enforcement remain unchanged. my father always taught me that incentive drives the behavior. show me the incentive and i'll show you the outcome. right now our incentives tell people that crime pays and accountability doesn't. that cannot be the legacy we leave for the next generation of small business owners. henry's house of coffee is not just a business, it's a testament to immigrant

perseverance, family legacy, an community pride. i love my city and my customers, and i want to remain part of san francisco's revival. but unless policymaker act decisively to restore law and order, more small businesse will make the painful choice to leave. thank you for listening to my story and for giving smal business owners a voice on this issue. i look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much, and and i now recognize mr. jackson for his 5 minute opening remarks. >> all right,ity, jeremy williams, ranking member of vasquez, and the committee for having me. i'm greg jackson, a dc resident, a survivor of gun violence here in the district, but also a small business owner and former deputy director for the white house office of gun violence prevention, where we coordinated federal resources t implement life saving policies and coordinated with local leaders to reach a nationwide

reduction in violent crime by 13.2% and homicides by 31% in just two years. i spent the las decade of my life working to address this crisis after being shot in 2013. i was shot by a stray bullet while walking home and that bullet hit two arterie and left me with a 50% chance o survival. but since that fatefu night, uh, you know, nearly a million americans have been sho or killed from buffalo to baltimore, stockton to washington, we've seen how gun violence is driving violent crime but also destroying families across our country. an it also remains the leading cause of death for youth in america, the leading cause of death for pregnant women in america, above childbirth complications, and now even the leading cause of newly disabled americans. with 1 in 5 american being impacted by violence, thi has also become personal for to many, but we also know there's clear financial cost to this crisis. according to brady united and nicjr, we have seen this crisis cost our economy upwards of $557 billion a year, equivalent to 2.6% of the us gdp, with southern states bearing the brunt of this economic toll, owning 41.4% of

firearm-related hospital costs and having a firearm death rate of 2.3 times higher than northeastern states. additionally, gun violence has direct cause for employers. the number of people shot increased by 400% between 2007 and 2020, according to data of individual and dependents insured by their ploy employer. it is estimated that a er it is estimated that a firearm injury causes employers $30,000 in direct medical spending in the first year of injury alone. employers must give employees who are shot a leave of absence, adding to over $535 million a year estimated impact on our businesses in our country, according to a recent harvard medical school research report. gun violence is also estimated to cost private employers roughly $535 million per year

because of lost productivity. and people who survive firearm experienced a 40% increase in pain disorders, a 51% increase in psychiatric disorders, and 85% increase in substance abuse disorders, affecting their ability to work and contribute to the business's goals and outcomes. but despite this crisis in the last few years, w have seen real solutions that work. in the last few years we've invested and seen histori reductions in violence and violent crime across our countr without masked agents, without military, but by investing in violence prevention, by investing in law enforcement, and most importantly pushing accountability upstream to make sure illegal guns and firearms don't flood our streets. recently, even the current fbi director cash patel celebrated historic low levels of violent crime, but we know these reductions are not a result of few months of troops or fbi actions. they're a result of th billions invested in violence prevention, as well as these ke policies. and the hard work fro business leaders and community leaders across our country to make our community safer. in fact, we saw a 54% reduction in homicides in baltimore, 41% reduction in phoenix, 38% reduction in chicago, even a 20 reduction in atlanta. but instead of investing more

federal resources into what we know what works, the trump administration has moved to dismantle and defund bipartisan strategies passed into law that reduce violence. they shut down the white house office of gun violence prevention. in the big beautiful bill, they defunded law enforce. meant directly defunded law enforcement by $41 million cut over $1 billion in mental health resources for schools, terminated $812 millio for violence prevention and intervention programs, and dismantled important regulation like the zero tolerance policy for gun dealers to break the law. and now there are further plans to defund critical resources like housing, health, and employment programs that we know address the root causes of violent crime. this is not the federal support that our small businesses or communities need. we need a government that is tough on crime by preventing it

before it happens, and that means directing law enforcement to prevent illegal guns from flooding our streets that we know are being used for robberies, crimes, and homicides. being tough on crime is funding atf to catch gun traffickers, to shut down rogue gun dealers, and disrupt dangerous. black markets that are selling illegal weapons tha land at crime scenes and being tough on crime is funding violence intervention and prevention programs, mental health resources for youth and other ways that we know we can reduce violence. we have real solutions to reduce violence, t reduce violent crime, and help reduce the harm that gun violence causes to our economy and small businesses, and i hop that we'll continue to build on that progress. thank you. gentleman, he was back and now want to say as we get started, you'll see people moving in and out. it's not you said the wron thing or the right thing. there's other hearings going on and you'll see that begin to begin to happen. we'll now move into the member questions under the 5 minute rule, and i now recognize myself for 5 minutes. mr. wickham, in your testimony, you make it clear that most

small businesses across america have been victims of crime. you note that these instances are becoming increasingly coordinated and violent, and that the economic impact on small businesses are severe. th question is how many small businesses nationwide are being affected by retail crime? and i which regions are you seeing th most significant impact? uh >> ity, mr. chairman. that's a good question when it comes to the statistics and continuing on a theme that we'vd earlier, one of the statistics that's most distressing to the business community is the rise in violence accompanying an act a criminal act. the recent studies by the national retail federation found that there's a 17% increase in violence

accompanying these individual acts of criminality, and that's something that is of grave concern to both the small business owners we've heard fro today as well as our larger members. and when we see that violence, we often look at the laws of a specific jurisdiction. is there a prosecutorial attitude towards certain crimes in that attitude in that district, or is there a of police resources? and when w do a district by district breakdown, that's the type of thing that we're looking for. when we see that, we'll go in. to states like ohio, florida, louisiana, wherever we have businesses that are reaching ou because of rising crime, we try to meet with all of the actors

in place. it is a multi-jurisdictional issue, so we are busy working w policymakers, with prosecutors, and with law enforcement to try to address these issues. yeah, mr. calian, uh, in cities where democratic leaders have embrace soft on crime policies like cashless bail, weekend prosecutions, small businesses are being hit in the hardest. you've talked about that. your coffee shop has faced multiple instances of theft and unfortunately, you are not the only small business victim of these crimes. so can you explai how repeat theft, rising security costs, and the lack of meaningful law enforcement have affected your ability to serve customers in your community and have a successful business >> yeah, thank you, chairman. i think that's the biggest issu is you have a mental challenge of feeling helpless. you have a embarrassment in front of customers where the theft is happening and the customers are looking at you like, are you going to do anything? um, and

then you have the liability of in my case, customers acting an taking on to prevent the theft, which is a big scare for me as a business owner. and in my area specifically, a lot of east asians, hardworking, put their head down and don't c and i feel like as a member of the community it's, i have to speak up for them. because they don't feel comfortable speaking out. come back sometimes, that's another issue. >> yes, sir, that's definitely a concern. and as you mentioned, that goes straight to the bottom line. ms. plagemeyer, over the past few years we've watched foreign and foreign adversaries infiltrate american networks and stealing sensitive data, intellectual property, and even penetrating the state's army national guard system. so how do these large scale cyberattacks indirectly affect small businesses like mine and

others? >> i think cybersecurity has turned into a kind of tax that we all pay through ransomware attacks and just the cost of, of protecting yourself. this has a sort of trickle down effect to even to us as consumers because it causes prices to go up, i think, um. the biggest problem that we see with small businesses is, is just getting their attention. they're very, very busy places, and cybersecurity isn't -- is an intangible effort protecting your business from physical theft is a very different thing. it's much more tangible. you can see it. you can't see a malware infection stealing information on your device, and so i think a lot of small businesses just don't give it the priority that it needs until it's actually too late until they've been affected. and my time is up, and -- >> and my time is up and i now recognize the ranking member for 5 minutes of questions. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. jackson, how does the

availability of guns escalate otherwise nonviolent incidents inside retail spaces like disputes, shoplifting encounters, or customer conflicts? >> yeah, we've seen, you know, the presence of firearms really being the major driver of interpersonal conflict becoming deadly. in fact, now 8. 1% of homicides in our cities are not connected to another felony. they're interpersonal conflicts with the presence of a firearm, often in public places. thank you, mr. jackson. kff found over 1 in 5 american adults have bee threatened with a gun. compared to other countries. how much worse of a problem is gun violence here? we're nearly tripled every other developed nation when it comes to violent crime related to firearms, and if you need any proof, you can go to london where they're worried about knife fights, whereas we're still dealing wit mass shootings as late as this week. is the gun homicides higher in urban centers compare to other parts of the country?

homicides are, but violence as whole is still high, even in rural communities. we don't tal enough about suicide by firearm which also has a huge impact on rural america. mr. chairman, i would like to enter to the record this article entitled the highest rates of gun homicides are in rural counties. ms. plagemeyer what, are the most common cybersecurity threa facing small businesses today? see there's a lot of new threats. ai ai has actually sor of jacked up the whole problem. it's made it easier and faster and more scalable for criminals to be effective. so when you

think about probably the most prevalent problem is social engineering, things like phishing emails, scammy texts, phone calls, malicious phone calls to your business, trying to trick employees into doing things they shouldn't do that create a vulnerability. those things have just gotten ramped up. the volume and the quality because of ai is so much better than it used to be. i could hav told you 6 months ago or a year ago that a phishing email would look kind of obvious. i'd tell you to look for poor grammar or spelling or bad graphics, but a has given the criminals the ability to make something that' in. distinguishable from what's legitimate, i'd actually say that i think cybercriminals hav adopted ai in their business, i you will, faster than small businesses have, and the spa used to have an online cybersecurity educational resource, but it was removed in 2018. should we add one back? well, actually, a link to our website staysafeonline.org is listed on the sba's website whe you look for their training. i think the most effective thing is public-private partnership. so the training curriculum that we've already gone to the expense of creating that's very very effective, you know, we'd be more than happy to work in conjunction with the sba to deliver that to more small businesses. but you know, we, w know that's. cybersecurity attacks and crime is an issue that is impacting small businesses. it will take only one cybersecurity attack to a small business that could put them out of business. so given the fact that the mission of sba. is to provide assistance and education capacity building to small businesses. don't you believe or don't you agree with me that having um an effective cybersecurity education at sba should be, you know, is something that is common sense. i think public private partnerships are the best way t deliver that kind of training. so working together between nonprofits and federal government like like we do

today, i think is a really effective mechanism because we can be a little bit more nimble we can bring things to market faster. i don't think they i think they should do. sba has a network is partnering with a national network of more than 2000 small business development centers and other small busines development organizations, so i don't see why it. they don't make it part of the mission of the sba, so that we've held events with them in person at those centers. yes, mr. jackson every town research found. oh, my time expire. are you're back thank you ranking member, um.

>> i think public-private partnerships are the best way to deliver that kind of training so working together between federal government and partnerships like we do tuesday is the most important partnership. we can be more nimble, bring things together faster. >> s.b.a. has a network -- is partnering with a national network of more than 2,000 small business development centers and other small business development organizations so i don't see why it -- they don't make it part to have mission of the s.b.a., so that -- >> we've held events with them in person at those centers, yes. >> mr. jackson -- my time expired. i yield back. >> i now recognize mr. stalber

from minnesota for five minutes, my favorite law enforcement officer on the hill. >> thank you. you know consideration crime increases, whether it's shoplifting, burglary, organize retail theft or vandalism, it's not just a statistic. small business owners are left to wonder whether they'll make payroll after covering the cost of damages or whether foot traffic was slow because community members feel less saf walking around or whether it's even worth their own safety to keep their doors open. we heard the numbers across the country, 95% of small business retailers report that they have experienced theft, and most say it's getting worse. nearly 80% of the small business retailers report that their monthly losse from theft are between $500 and $2500 annually. as a former police officer who served my community for over two decades, i take this personally. when i talked to officers and small business owners, the story is the same as we heard in our crime hearing last congress. policies from weak on crime cities and states are undercutting the people trying to do the right thing and tilting the field toward the

repeat offenders. mr. wick ham, from what you're hearing from small businesses across the country, how have soft on crime policies like cashless bail, raised felony thresholds, and lax prosecution changed their day-to-day reality? >> yeah, as i said earlier, we really look at day to day reality? yeah, as i jurisdiction by jurisdiction basis, and the criminal elements that we're dealing with are very sophisticated, and they are hitting the areas where they know they will not be prosecuted. so we've been working with individual units o government whether it to be organized and coordinate -- and when they're not prosecuted, though, what does that do to th small business and the communit when the when the owners know that they can steal $300 becaus there are 300 or $450. worth of product and the $500 threshold

is there. what is there. what does it do to the does it do to the small business owner? >> extremely demoralizing. the lack of prosecution results in these repeat offenders that we hear about time and time aga whether it be mr. harra's story being hit 35 times or big box retailers being hit 600 times. this is a message that gets out there amongst the criminal network, and we're working very hard to change the laws in all the states to allow for aggregation so that they're not allowed to hit these stores just below the felony limit and then do so on a repeated basis, and we'd like to work with this committee to ensure that all th states allow for aggregation of prosecution. >> we just can't be soft on crime. if you steal $350 or $550 they have to be prosecuted and dealt

with, as you said, these, these criminals, they know if there's a, if there's a small business that you can just steal from we see it on a daily basis on the news across this nation. it is demoralizing and it affec people that want to go into a retail business. why would they want to go into retail business when they know they're going to lose $2500 a month? sometimes that's what makes or breaks the to be able to stay in business. mr. kalim, you talk about, you talk about your coffee shop, an you, it's a 3rd generation now in san francisco. i, i can't imagine what your grandfather and your father and what you ar going through when you see this happening and the officers are saying my superiors, just let it go, let it go it's got to be demoralizing,

your customers see that it's got to be devastating. i would imagine that you would probably have more business when they know they're going in there and they're safe as customers, and you would probably be able to hire more workers when you know that it's safe and in your community that they prosecute even a cup of coffee, they prosecute. it's that broken windows theory, right? you prosecute the little things, right? tell us a little bit more what it's been like for you. thank you, congressman. well, you can think prop 47 that was passed in 2014, where ou >> threshold is $950. >> wait a minute. in california, your threshold is $950? >> yes, sir. >> your legislator said -- $950?

>> yeah, and last year a -- in california and you don't get -- 1 >> les in it's above that. unbelievable. and we tried, we -- >> thank you, mr. chairman. i'd like to start by echoing the words of the chairman and thank congresswoman nydia velasquez for her amazing service. la luchadora has been a fighter for the people, for small businesses across this country, and a historic tenure in congress, and we are all going to miss you incredibly. so i just want to start by thanking you and what will be the first of many times. we thank you over the next year or so. i want to get into cybersecurity and go into that a

little bit right now. i was in a small business before coming to congress where this is a real threat. i mean this is the kind of thing where, you know, people don't want to go through the trainings, but they've got to go through the trainings because the emails are coming through. and if you're a small business, you cannot afford these types of attacks that are coming from people who are trying to extort you from money. they are a threat to everybody. but for small businesses who have limited resources, it is really and truly a problem. so you guys have highlighted that problem today but i also want to say that because we are hearing congress, a lot of the problems you guys are talking about, they are real problems. they are local problems. they are state problems. and they are real. but here in congress we've got to think, what can we do for everybody across this country from the federal government? and one of the things we have

had is a cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency. this has been an effective way of dealing with some of the cyber security threats and helping out our state and local partners. however, when president trump came into office he has gutted the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency. it is our premier cyber agency. it is enjoyed -- it has enjoyed years of bipartisan support, but donald trump decided to tear it down. now why did he decide to tear it down? he tore it down because he doesn't like the director, chris krebs, for stating that the 2020 election was secure, that contradicts the president's lies about widespread fraud. but here's the thing, that personal vendetta he's carrying out against cisa has real impacts because while now the agency in charge of combating cyber security is gone, cybersecurity is more relevant than ever and people are still our small businesses, our local governments, other entities are at great risk of exploitation. in kentucky alone we've seen

ransomware attacks again small businesses local police departments, schools, universities, health care providers all happening dust all -- all happening. >> i cannot speak to how they may or may not have helped small businesses. i can say when i've talked to small businesses, you know, it's, it's not really, um. the case, it's not really rational to think that the federal government or even federal law enforcement can, can provide hands-on support when every small business has a security incident, right? it just doesn't scale that way. so that so i think public and private partnership and the fact that this is a cybersecurity is a bipartisan issue. i really think that's important. >> it is important we focus on cybersecurity especially in the federal government. there are crucial cybersecurity

programs that are essential to this objective like those that focused on cyber information sharing, but the federal provisions facilitating this lapsed at the end of september which is why we should reauthorize this which is why we should, we should have this bipartisan change. i want to change gears. mr. wickham, you are with the chamber of commerce and looking at the chamber of commerce and what you all said this year, the chamber estimates that the president's tariffs will impose a tax of slightly more than 200 billion dollars on american small businesses. the chamber of commerce also found that in 2022 which is the year with the highest rate of reported retail crime, retail losses were organized retail crime is a significant driver amounted to about 100 billion dollars. is 200 billion dollars bigger or smaller than $100 billion? >> congressman, it is definitely big, twice as big.

and here is the thing and this is what i'm going to get at. it's 100 billion dollars. cybersecurity is a big deal. we need to focus on crime for small businesses but in this committee where there is a $100 billion loss due to crime, there is a 200 billion dollar loss according to the chamber right now to small businesses because of the president's tariff policies and we have yet to have a single hearing on it or how to address this. >> did you come here from san francisco? >> yes. >> thank you for coming out here. you are a third generation business. did your grandfather emigrate from armenia? >> lebanon, sir. >> from lebanon. and you started this business after immigrating here and started this coffee business which has been in your family for three generations except i'm assuming at some point in time it was safe to operate and you are profitable and you had no

problems finding employees. when did that stop? >> bats always been a challenge. an ongoing challenge. >> but have you felt a lack of security and safety recently like with the previous mayor in san francisco? is it starting to turn around with the new administration? >> yes, congressman, actually mayor lori who is a narrow the levi's brand has done a fantastic job so far. hope >> has there been a change in the police presence? the previous administration didn't do that? i'm really wanting to know because i haven't been there in years. >> that was not the tactical decisions by the previous administration. >> are your employee starting to

feel safer in your city now or are we still having problems? >> we have not had an issue at my store in the last four months. which is right around the time went -- >> can you explain that? >> it is simple. you focus on preventing homelessness, crime and theft and you focus on what small businesses need to survive. >> do you have a police officer that comes in to your store for its fine coffee? >> yes, we have police officers often and we get fire department officer is the emt and police officers coming in all the time. >> so it's still a democrat administration but a different law keeping and police enforcement philosophy. >> that is correct. >> it is a nationwide problem based on policies not which side of the aisle you happen to sit on but recognizing as a small businessman your new mayor says

were putting cops on the streets and protecting the small businesses because you can't hire anybody if they don't feel safe at work. if a homeless person is coming in your place spitting in your face and stealing money from the tip jar, people are not going to work for you. >> if some is mentally ill or on drugs which now the line is a lot more blurry, especially in some of these cities that have been overrun by cheap drugs that have -- that our psychotics. you're going to have a hard time continuing in your business so i hope this new mayor continues those policies that are not partisan. it is common sense that you have to have a police presence in your city to prevent crime so businesses can drive because businesses can't thrive if people aren't walking down the street. if there are needles and other stuff on the street, people aren't going to walk on them and you feel like your new mayor is doing a good job. >> doing a fantastic job. starting next year he's implementing a new policy on the streets. if you are caught doing drugs

you have two choices. you get arrested or you go to a clinic that is being built on the sick street in downtown sansone -- san francisco. >> i'm glad to hear that. i hope you have many years of success. i'm glad you survived and are staying in your community and working to have safer streets and thank you for being here. as we talked earlier, the drip drip drip of having money stolen from the tip jar, things like that, that has a long-term effect. but it also like to point out that ms. malaak is -- velasquez mentioned that in one fell swoop a business can be completely destroyed and nobody knows about it except the business odor and people don't understand -- why did they go out of business? tell me the rate of increase that we are seeing in small businesses in the united states being cyber -- having cyber attacks and just completely being put out of business. what is that look like? >> there's not really reliable data on how many businesses

because of as you mentioned, there is a lot of victim shame and victim blaming we don't always have reliable data. we know when it comes to cyber crime, only about 15% of entities report that to ic three.gov. it is probably worse -- >> once they go out of business, there's no sense in reporting it. my time is expired. i recognize ms. coulton from michigan for five minutes. >> thank you, sir and thank you to the committee for having this important hearing today and all of our witnesses for joining us to talk about this issue. we take very seriously the impact that crime has on our small businesses across the country but i do take issue with the chairman statements these are democratic policies. as we just heard from you, sir, democrats can institute policies that absolutely protect our businesses in even better ways.

and currently, if were going to have an honest hearing, we need to look at the ways that republican leadership has failed to fully fund law enforcement policies and has even further failed to hold criminals accountable. president trump pardoned juan orlando hernandez, the former president of honduras, who was convicted by a federal court for drug trafficking and weapons charges virtually flooding our streets with illegal drugs and guns. the number one killer of pregnant women. thank you for pointing that out. mr. hernandez once boasted that he would quote stuff the drugs up the noses of the gringos." how does this make us more safe as a community? let's look what our republican president is doing or not doing to keep our streets safe. earlier this year, republicans

introduced an appropriations bill that would slash billions of dollars from public safety funds. the trump administration slashed millions in grant awards, 88 million dollars. i want to read this because it is so important. $88 million in grant award for substance abuse treatment, mental health services and programs that team with police and with health professionals to help divert crime, programs that you are talking about here that directly impacted your small business. if we are going to have a serious hearing about this, let's have a serious hearing about this and talk about where the policies are doing the most good work to keep our small business safe. mr. jackson, my first question is, how does the availability of guns in the streets as the late otherwise nonviolent incidents inside retail spaces like disputes, shoplifting encounters or customer conflicts?

>>, it turns any situation into a near fatal one and i know we have a few members of law enforcement here earlier. the presence of a firearm also makes it dangerous for our law enforcement officials and that is why states like florida pushed forward the first-ever red flag law at the state level to disarm those folks who are in a moment of crisis. and we know that republicans have fallen for this -- have fought for this and law enforcement has fought for this but the leaders on both sides of the aisle have fought to keep guns out of the hands of those who are in that moment of crisis before that conflict happens that makes it dangerous for everyone present. >> absolutely, i could not agree more and were so glad that you survive to continue to do the advocacy that you do. then safety remains a top issue in my district. in kent county alone, 14 .2% of all fatal injuries are gun related. it comes as no surprise that the great threat of dying -- gun violence has a huge threat on

residents and small businesses alike. i'm glad that is such an important part of the conversation today. i want to switch gears as well and turn to our next guest, my next question is -- your organizations at 2025, 2026 cybersecurity attitudes and behaviors report found that 52% of employed participants have never received training on the security or privacy risks of artificial intelligence tools. it is just astounding. my bill, the ai-wise act would help to educate small business owners on those risks. i'm so proud of the bipartisan support that bill has received in this committee. can you explain why an ai user should be knowledgeable on the risks of ai? >> yes, because it's not just about what you're getting back. the results you are getting from whatever ai tool you are using -- we are really focused on the work that we are using it to do or the information that we are using a defined and we forget that it is not google. what we are putting in there we are giving way to the world,

literally. so if you look at this year's report you'll also see we asked people how many people are actually giving away company information to ai. it is a pretty high percentage. it is up from last year. and then this year we asked -- what are you sharing with an ai tool that you probably shouldn't be. it is confidential business plans, customer information, things like code that your company has produced that your developers have produced. it is information that should not be public. >> thank you, i yelled back. >> gentlelady yields back. i now recognize mr. downing from the great state of montana for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman and thank you to the witnesses for being here. preserving law and order is a fundamental component of fostering a secure environment for small businesses and entrepreneurship to thrive. businesses depend on the protection of property, employees and customers in order to be profitable and to attract investment.

unfortunately in cities across the u.s. like washington, d.c., chicago, st. louis, st. louis, the embrace of radical pro-crime policies like cashless bail, limitations on police, restrictions on self-defense have empowered criminals and victimized innocent citizens amid us -- and businesses. i'm going to start with mr. wickham. in your testimony you highlight how small businesses have faced the brunt of rising property and retail crime in the last few years. can you expand on what government policies you believe have contributed most of the forms of crime -- the most commonly victimized small businesses? >> yes, congressman, when we talk to our small businesses, the issue that they are most concerned about is lack of law enforcement funding and prioritization. the second is decreased prosecution policies hitting it

both at the initial reporting of the crime. we have statistics from our friends at the national retail federation that 64% of businesses reported less than half of the crime incidents in their stores and the reason most cited was lack of law enforcement support. so on the other hand, you have members who are very concerned about repeat offenders where prosecution policies because the laws are not updated to allow for aggregation of a fax, the fisted good criminals -- the sophisticated criminals are hitting the same organizations and businesses over and over again. >> so how has this, this crime within these neighborhoods, how has this impacted the ability of entrepreneurs to attract investment? >> to allow for aggregation of

affects the sophisticated criminals are hitting the same -- so how has this, this crime within these neighborhoods -- that they took the rare step for each number of -- chamber of commerce of surveying their members about crime and they found that 90% of their ceos were concerned about public safety but 70% of them saw it as a factor for the states competitiveness. >> but you cannot draw businesses to your area if there is a public safety concern. i appreciate your response. i'm going to move on. i want to transition to discussing cyber security threats that plague small businesses, especially given the rising impact of artificial intel so i'm going to move. in your testimony you alarmingly

emphasized that cyber criminals have adopted ai faster than most small businesses. so what new capabilities has ai unlocked for cyber criminals and targeting small businesses? >> you don't need a bunch of criminals with devices all launching attacks. you can use a bunch of devices in one person with ai launching attacks at scale. you have the scam centers around the globe where people have been human trafficked into these scam centers mainly in asia. there's hundreds of thousands of people in the scam centers and they are just perpetuating crimes like pink butchering on individual citizens. they're also perpetrating crimes on small businesses. i mean at the end of the day were all individuals and were all targeted whether we work at a large enterprise or we work at a small business so they're using a lot of automation to conduct those crimes in a way that really scales for them. >> i appreciate that. as a former securities regulator and dealing with things like

pink butchering and some of these things, these tools for defrauding people is really pretty alarming. so how does a lack of knowledge about the cyber threat -- about these cyber threats prevent small business owners from implementing adequate cybersecurity measures? >> our belief is that they just don't understand enough about basic i.t. hygiene. some of the things that i listed in my written statement. is that lack of knowledge, that lack of education, some of the myths i mentioned where they think -- my i.t. guy has it handled her my managed services provider has a handle. they don't know enough about the risk to manage the rest so they don't know what questions they should should ask when they hire an i.t. person or a managed services provider. how do they hold that person accountable? what sort of data and reporting should they be looking for this essay that were actually decreasing the risks to the business? >> thus where we come in with

small business education in layman's terms. there's a lot of tech speak. >> i now recognize that the lady from the great state of new jersey. >> thank you for holding the hearing today and thank you to the witnesses. america's small businesses are the backbone of our communities. the first employers for millions of families and the anchors of local economic life. i think we can all agree crime holds businesses back from reaching their full potential for their communities they serve. it makes it harder for business owners and workers to keep their families fed and bills paid. protecting and supporting small businesses is the only way for our economy to prosper. on top of everything, small business owners open their doors every morning only to be hit from every direction in this prompt era. in spite of backward republican proposals that worsen crime, we have seen historic drops in crime over the last few years we can still do better and we can

reduce crime in ways that are smart and empathetic. our focus must remain on advancing evidence-based policies that foster real stability for our small businesses, policies like those implemented in newark, new jersey, my home city and our great congressional district 10. we are very proud to be charting a pathway forward that uses community-based holistic methods to reduce crime by embracing a public health approach. newark has seen a violent crime drop, over 50%, in the last decade and in 2024 saw the lowest rate of homicides in 60 years. this success is a testament to how we empower our community. the community to be coproducers of public safety instead of outdated policies that do nothing more than lock people away and ignore the real calls -- cause. with that, i want to go to mr. jackson. first of all i want to thank you for being here and i want to thank you for sharing your story

and for all of the advocacy work that you have done over your time not just here in d.c. but across the country. it is great to see you again and thank you for being here. it is unfortunate that you have to be here and watch my colleagues across the aisle talk out of both sides of their mouths this morning. while we talk about small businesses seeing an increase in attacks from violence, we also see that they have reduced so much in anti-violence funding from closing down and shutting down the office of a gun violence prevention, all of these things that we constantly see happening but yet they are concerned about law enforcement and concerned about crime in our communities. i find it baffling to hear that. small businesses often note that crime around their storefronts is tied to broader challenges especially in urban communities, for example, lack of youth engagement, mental health support and neighborhood instability. based on your experience, how do

investments in these preventative services such as job training and therapy improve safety outcomes and reduce risk and operating costs for the small businesses located there? >> look, in the last two years, we saw a 31% reduction in him -- homicides. this year we are on pace for another 18% reduction. that means we've cut the crisis of gun violence in gun related homicides in half due to these investments, investing in mental health where the bipartisan safer communities act set the gold standard for youth mental health. investing in community violence intervention, investing in law enforcement, investing in victim services, we added $2 billion. and all of that helps prevent violence before it happens. prevent violent crime before it happens as well as when you couple that with holding gun dealers in the gun industry accountable -- putting guns into communities or in the hands of those who are most at risk. as you shared, it is all under

siege. 820 million dollars in grants were canceled. 300 73 awards and the department of justice alone. that included 3.5 million dollars from project safe neighborhoods. that is a law enforcement program created under the president bush administration. there were significant cuts for police training. there was even a $13 million cut to the rural violent crime reduction initiative. so we are watching all the infrastructure that was put in place that has seen historic results three years in a row being dismantled. -- dismantled, defunded and destroyed. luckily we have states like new jersey that have their own office of violence prevention that are investing at the state level to offset the slashes but were seeing so many states and cities really suffer in this infrastructure being destroyed. >> thank you so much for sharing that. once again across the aisle my colleagues -- my colleagues are lying but one thing that doesn't

lie is the number and the data. thank you for sharing. >> this is a very important subject. we just heard my colleague talk about data and facts and truth. if it were not for the amount of stress small businesses would have if we did not pass the one big beautiful bill as it is known, 199 letter a, it is a 20% tax increase on small business, bonus depreciation, r&d tax credit, no tax on tips, tax on overtime, income tax reduction. energy costs have come down. regulations are minimizing. inflation is lower than it was before. and now were talking about crying. these are all things that republicans voted for and democrats, facts and data, voted against. i mean almost 100% of them if not 100%. i'm from pennsylvania,

philadelphia. we have a district attorney there that thinks it is a wonderful idea never to prosecute those who commit illegal gun carrying crimes. now somebody wants to blame it on guns. it is clear that when you prosecute less than 30%, it used to be 70% just a few years ago in philadelphia, our crime is over-the-top. chicago, new york, detroit, charlotte -- crime in san francisco. ok, the crime levels are in some cases simply not being reported as they are not in philadelphia. and yet you do know homicides. homicides are almost as high on a population basis as chicago. and what is even worse as i looked up what were the worst cities in the world on a per capita basis for murders. do you know what is behind chicago and philadelphia? nairobi. and they have something there

where they are out killing women for some crazed reason. this is the u.s.. and so we've got a big problem and this is just one of the problems facing small businesses. and if we ignore it and act like money will save everything, that is ever going to get us there, frankly. it is unbelievable. they want to double down on every mistake being made with more cash. so mr. wickham, let me start with you. what do you say about this? you started saying that when gun violence -- when people using guns is not being prosecuted, what sort of effect is that have on small businesses these days? >> it really sets up a challenging environment for all businesses and communities where there is no consequence for criminal activity. and when a store is hit repeatedly, the first thing they're going to have to do is look at raising prices.

and eventually closing their doors. and we have a saying at the u.s. chamber, no business should have to close because of crime. >> and what about the fact that people don't want to come downtown when they are seeing riots and all kinds of anti-police -- they are saying we are not funding the police but what about in the streets? i don't want to get political but when was the last time we saw anybody in the democrat party denounce the protesting existing in front of all the stores? is that a problem to? is that less traffic? >> there is no challenging the fact that when you have high crime rates in an area it is extremely destabilizing to businesses. >> my little town of wilkes-barre, right outside my district, people aren't showing up -- miss, i'm sorry, if you could elaborate on the cyber. let's veer a little bit. what are small businesses -- i know some companies that have been hit by cyber don't report

it, call me and asked what should we do, that sort of thing. what are the avenues that you can tell us that we need to accentuate so small business, medium and even large businesses can find answers if they feel they are under cyber threat? demo we have a lot of answers on stay safe online.org. we have a lot of educational materials that are free. we are a nonprofit. i think what we need are more points of leverage to get businesses to be proactive. cybersecurity people like to say there are two kinds of businesses. there are ones that have had a security incident and the ones that have had one but don't know it yet. it is really a problem getting people to engage sooner before something catastrophic happens that puts them out of business. that it's really the problem that we see. getting their attention. they are very busy place is so finding those points of leverage, we've tried to work with franchisors to get

franchisees to take training. we've had programs in the past with the sba. and we will continue those. dam if you could provide us with that information i would appreciate it. mr. klabijan, i hope you get a chance to express your situation. i yelled back. >> i now recognize mr. tran from the great state of california for five minutes. mr. tran: thank you, mr. chairman and thank you to the ranking member and yourself are convening today's hearing. and thank you to the witnesses. i would like to address the comments of my colleagues. i'm proud to represent california, the fourth largest economy in the world with 4.2 small businesses representing 99.9% of all businesses in the state. california farmers, many of them small businesses, supply 62% of the country's fruit and nuts and 56% of the vegetables to feed our country.

california continues to be instrumental in the success of this nation economically. mr. jackson junior, thank you for being so open and vulnerable about your experience as a gun violence survivor. according to the trump administration fiscal year 2026 budget request, they are proposing to cut $1 billion in funding across 40 department of justice programs supporting police departments that directly impacts enforcement in violent crime, hate crimes and drug crimes. the trump administration has also requested over $5 million in cuts from the fbi, 400 $60 million from the atf and 212 million dollars from the dea which would limit the federal government's ability to fight major crime in combat international drug trafficking. the german sentiment about small business is not reporting crimes because of lack of resources to address these crimes is absolutely true. as a small business owner, my wife and i saw multiple

break-ins last year and there's just not enough resources to help us and other small businesses with these attacks. that is why am concerned. what are your thoughts on those cuts and how with those funding cuts impact america's public safety and small businesses? >> i want to echo what you are us sharing -- what you are sharing which is that we have solutions that work and weaves -- and we know that investing has seen significant results. in the last two years we were able to prosecute over 600 gun traffickers. we shut down 200 gun stores that were violating the law. we shut down 350 websites that were illegally selling machine-gun conversion devices. all that has helped us get this reduction of 13% in violent crime and 31% to homicides. but that is not the approach that we need if we truly care about investing in small investment -- and law

enforcement and keeping our small businesses safe. and we are also seeing the cities and states that are investing or seeing results. philadelphia is down 17.5 percent and homicides. california is down 9.5% in violent crime and property crimes are down 15 point 4% in california. and so we are seeing that states that invest in law enforcement community based strategies and violence prevention efforts are seeing historic results. >> thank you. mr. jackson, as you know the trump administration is aggressively ramping up immigration enforcement across the nation in an effort to fulfill his campaign promise a mass deportation. he has terrorized immigration -- immigrant communities across the nation. the white house has also diverted a considerable number of federal agents from their jobs of preventing serious crimes and jeopardizing important public safety initiatives. including protecting american families from gun crime to patrol the streets of major cities and according to a report

published by the cato institute, ice has diverted more than 28,000 federal law enforcement agents from their jobs of investigating and preventing serious crimes to now conducting civil immigration operations. furthermore, reporting suggest that atf has reassigned 80% of its special agents to immigration enforcement. likewise, the fbi has had 23% of agents allocated to focus on immigration enforcement. how effective is that diversion in fighting and preventing violent crime? >> it is ineffective. it is dangerous and frankly it is a huge waste of resources. i mean, the opportunity cost is major. when you deplete a workforce that is already very small that is inspecting gun dealerships that are trying to break down black-market rings of firearm sales, we know that he legally sold guns are the fastest guns to arrive on the crime scene. whether it is homicide or other forms of crying.

and so to dismantle and pretty much shut down the atf, leave cities and states vulnerable to guns illegally flown into their communities and get into the hands of those who have the mindset of committing a crime. >> with that, chairman, i yield back. >> i now recognize mr. bresnahan from the great state of pennsylvania for five minutes. mr. bresnahan: thank you to the chairman and to the ranking member and our witnesses. although i'm disappointed that we must actually have a hearing on this topic at all but as we've heard today american small businesses are increasingly forced to factor in safety measures into their business plans to guard against shoplifting and retail theft on top of managing inventory, supply chains and staffing needs. pennsylvania knows this reality all too well. our commonwealth ranks fifth in the nation for retail crime and suffers the highest total value of stolen gads in the country -- total goods in the country

averaging $430 per resident. this is unacceptable and preventable. retail crime threatens the existence of mom-and-pop shops in northern pennsylvania -- northeastern pennsylvania. garrity supermarkets with 10 locations across northeastern pennsylvania reported loss of theft can reach over $2 million a year. as members of the small business committee we have a responsibility to focus on policies that help our small local businesses stay open and safe. my first question, mr. wickham, can you explain or expand more on the impact of retail theft and crime on the people that experience it firsthand, small business owners and their employees as well as the broader community in the neighborhoods these businesses operate in? >> time after time, stories like our colleagues are brought to the u.s. chamber whereby there has been an incident that causes employees to want to leave,

because her shoppers do not want to come to that business and then eventually that business has to close its doors. that has a profound impact on the community. and we encourage those small businesses in the area to coordinate to try to take a preventative attitude toward stemming some of these things because it is so systemic. it is not just the small business down the block, it is the whole block when there is an incident. >> has there been any case studies or suggestions -- congressman musser had referenced at wilkes-barre and we have cities like scranton and stroudsburg in hazleton that we have big city problems right in our own backyard. we have five interstate highway systems that interconnect to within northeastern pennsylvania but is there anything specific

that you can point to within the community culture that you found to be successful in mitigating some of these ramifications? >> yes, the most successful cooperation i've seen is when the prosecutors, the law enforcement and the business community get together in an organized fashion. we were referred to them shorthanded as work is, organized retail crime associations because the sharing of information is so important and it is so challenging for small businesses that don't have a large umbrella corporate office to unite their resources. so it is very important for the small businesses to work together with the prosecutors with law enforcement and with policymakers and to commend your state, the pennsylvania chamber of commerce supported state law to set up an organized retail crime office within the attorney

general's office. and just in over a year they have opened over 65 investigations made more than 40 arrests and recovered nearly $2 million in stolen goods uniting those rural communities, the smaller and midsize communities who are talking about. as will the sum of the larger urban centers. >> it is nice to know that the attorney general, dave sunday, that there has been an initiative there. in my last life i was a real estate it -- as state devil upper and we made investments in downtown pittston and getting to work with the entrepreneur and seeing the struggles they go through every day making sure their stores are staffed and that they can keep up with inventory and process different surges whether that is a brewery like black cat rowing or grease and park or a hair salon they're dealing with the same reality. it is important to have that

cultural impact. you phrased it eloquently to say that it is important for the culture of the community to come together to repel or repeal some of the crime. also what's importunate -- also what is unfortunate is when you have a detective in the script please joe barton the gets shot in the head. i yield back. i -- i now recognize ms. simon from the great state of california for five minutes. >>, thank you, mr. chairman and our ranking member peters mr. jackson, thank you for being here. i have followed the work of the office prior to the betrayal of this administration in shutting it down. what i thought was interesting about the offices that the initiating group that brought the office of violence prevention together is faith leaders from all over the country. thank you and thank you for your work. my next question is from my bay area brother.

you are in the sunset. my mama lives in the sunset. i believe i know where your coffee shop is. thank you for traveling. it is a long flight. i take it every week. we are honored to have you here. a couple of questions, they might seem a little off topic but i believe that they will come together. do your employees at the coffee shop have health insurance? >> yes. >> and are you aware that the proposed cuts to the affordable care act and small business tax credits would make it harder for small business owners like yourself to provide health coverage to your employees? >> yes. >> thank you. you also told the chronicle and i read the article and i agree with you. i read the article five times in the last few days when i knew you were coming out of respect. i agree with everything you said in the article. i want to be clear that i think it is going to get worse. while you have a mayor, and in

fact, mr. lorry is not a businessman. he led the tipping point foundation. i was on his board for eight years and i loved the work they were doing at tipping point to combat poverty and some of these root causes. and i agree with your assessment. he is on the streets every day working with small businesses asking the questions about root causes. that works. so i'm excited that you're in the communication with the administration. but the administration is cutting one point $7 billion from mental health services that go into states, counties and cities and he has in fact fired half of the mental health staff from samsara which is shocking. my question is simple. how do we solve the mental health crises that you clearly and beautifully articulated in your chronicle article? mental health crises that are driving small crime which feels like big crime if you're running a small business in our communities?

when this administration is defunding mental health in real time. if you think it was bad last year, can you imagine counties like san francisco, way to louisiana, denver, you name it, they are going to see their mental health grants slashed. how do we some more -- support small businesses while stripping away your ability to keep your employees safe, insured and the folks who are causing the issues outside of your business, they will receive a deeper cut to the small services that they already receive in their struggle for mental health? >> the congressman mentioned that california is the fourth largest economy in the world. we are a big country. we can figure it out. i think california should be able to solve for that. one example would be we could stop funding the train to nowhere that we've been spending $5 million per mile to build

that hasn't been built for 10 years. that would be one example. >> thank you. and with my brief time left, i want to bring it home that we have a federal government that has been explicit about defunding mental health services that reach our cities in real time. so in san francisco and oakland where i represent, should a police officer take a mentally ill person into custody we know now that there are so few beds and with the cuts to mental health that are coming in real time, there will be fewer beds and fewer services. now training infrastructure, those are different parts of our federal and local budgets but health and human services, when those real cuts hit our streets, i would hope that this committee would find it in our hearts to figure out how to push sba.

push other parts of our federal government to fund real opportunities for our small business owners to keep their storefront safe, to provide opportunities for our local and regional and state and federal law enforcement officers to actually have places to send in the midst of their crisis. and again i want to thank you for being here and i appreciate your advocacy. >> i now recognize mr. bead from the great state of wisconsin for five minutes. mr. reed: it doesn't matter if your business is in green bay or new york city, appleton or washington, d.c., retail crime negatively and disproportionately impact small businesses across u.s. as a former small business owner i know firsthand how detrimental crime is for small businesses. a 2024 study found that almost 80% of small businesses report at the annual cost of theft to be between $500 and $2500 per

year. this may not seem like a lot to some, businesses already are operating on thin margins and they have a hard time recovering from these losses and it could be the difference between ending the month in the black or ending the month in the red. retail crime is not the only way crime impact small businesses. in blue democratic cities where police are prohibited from enforcing the law and district attorneys refused to prosecute crime, people don't feel safe shopping. they don't feel safe going out to eat or even going for a walk in the local park. next time you're in a city like chicago or san francisco, just walk down the street. what used to be a bustling area filled with local businesses are no boarded up and abandoned. this is a direct result of democrats doubling down on their failed, soft on crime policies such as reducing penalties retail theft and cashless bail which allows criminals to return

to the streets before their arresting officer has finished their shift. these policies not only hurt the small businesses but their customers and their staff as well. i always enjoy hearing directly from small businesses and you've obviously carried on the legacy that you talk about your dad and some of his advice and i love hearing that. your father always taught you that incentives drive behavior. and that could not be more true. show me the incentive and i'll show that the outcome. right now our incentives tell people that crime pays and accountability does not. but i would like to hear from you here today as a small business owner. ui faced at the onslaught of theft from a repeat of vendor and i did as well. what impact have you seen on people willing to come into your store based on your experiences? >> that specifically has not been as big because we do have a

really tight community. but the impact has done more on me and my staff feeling helpless , feeling unsafe and sad. the conversations instead of being -- it was busy today or the customer came by and said, hello -- it is more of conversations like stanley came in again and this time he dropped the tip jar. negative comments and it was impacting my retail side of the business as opposed to the customers because they were supporting us throughout. >> so you have a good network of other business owners. tell us about your friends and businesses that are around you. >> the example we talk about is it only impact small businesses but it impacts large businesses also. we had a walgreens pharmacy down the street and employees would come to our shop every day to grab a cup of coffee. we would ask them and we would talk about how bad it was. the pharmacy is now closed because people were coming in and stealing under 950 dollars

every single day. and even a big business like walgreens can't afford it. it is the only pharmacy in a two mile radius. so the community has also lost a place to get prescriptions. >> you talk about things that congress can do which is shining a spotlight on the problem. we have to admit there is a problem. you talk about the heart of the problem is policy failures and locally, local prosecutors. you talk about being constrained. they are constrained by political choices rather than pursuing these cases. can you explain locally how that has impacted you --? >> i mention this earlier on prop 47 which passed in 2014 which took petty theft down to a nothing burger. that policy granted it started in 2014 when covid hit, everybody started to move away from the downtown into the

neighborhoods where we are. and it now is a free-for-all. you are literally passing a bill that says you can steal up to nine hundred $50 and you want to get arrested. what's going to happen? what is the incentive? and then we passed prop 37 last year which was a band-aid that said, you can steal two more times but after that then we might arrest you as opposed to just getting rid of prop 47 altogether. >> well, thank you and thank you for being a small business owner and continuing on the legacy that your family has done. you are the heart of america. thank you. >> i now recognize the gentleman from the great state of maryland for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman, ranking member and our witnesses. i appreciate the opportunity to discuss the impact of crime on small business across our country. it is true, surges in retail and cyber crime put both our nations

employers and consumers at risk. we in congress should be doing all we can to stop crime. it is an issue i was passionate about when i was baltimore county executive before i came to congress where we made combating crime central to helping small businesses grow and thrive. and in stark contrast to some of the hyperbolic do you find that the police rhetoric i've heard earlier today, i was a democrat from a one of many over the past years, who invested in new i spent tens of millions of dollars in new local resources to support our police department and public safety generally. but i also made investments in prevention because i know we can be both tough on crime, not only by holding people accountable, and we should for their actions, but also by making those upstream investments to prevent crime from happening in the first place. our efforts were strengthened by smart and efficient federal funding made possible by laws like the merc and rescue act and

the bipartisan safer communities act which granted billions of dollars to states and cities for a public safety and violence prevention initiatives. through a 12.7 million dollar grant from the cdc, baltimore county's department of health and social services on the fire department deployed. outreach specialists and ems clinicians trained specifically for. outreach for non-fatal overdose victims and their families, reducing the downstream impact of substance abuse on -- on our communities and our commercial users. yesterday i heard from our county and they don't readily know what the administration's cuts are to that grant or what the impacts will be to that program. this was a program that led to a decrease -- decrease in fatal overdoses by 40% in 2020 five, nonfatal overdose is down almost 25% and fentanyl related dust down your 50%. we sent corporals to the fb guy on the cyber test was to learn

about how we can do more to fight cybercrime. we worked directly with businesses and odor -- owners with programs like our away, an organization that engages both young people and police officers to help trauma and drive change. through federal grants we installed enhanced lightning, camera systems and deployed more license plate readers expanding our mobile crisis units and we put a 911 clinician in our call center. we put the resources where there was the greatest need and we saw significant impact. but again, these results were possible because of the strong collaboration between federal, state and local leaders. as you've heard today, unfortunately the trump administration is now a handicapping public safety by cutting and laying off people. the states are now dealing with a collective $500 million in revoked balances from 3/8 -- 373 grants, undermining the very programs that keep our businesses and community safe and yet not a peep from the other side. i look forward to working with

this committee to draft and uplift legislation that strengthens america's small businesses. mr. jackson, the city of baltimore which you referenced which i'm proud to know represent in congress, has also experienced a significant decrease in homicides on track to have the lowest homicide in 50 years. we have to keep doing more but were proud of that progress. they were recently awarded $62 million after a jury ruled in their favor against a hanover based firearm shot for selling untraceable ghost guns. sales have increased exponentially in recent years. how has the federal government acted to reduce the spread of ghost guns in your opinion? >> historically, especially during the biden-harris administration, that was a top priority to crack down on ghost guns. there were multiple executive actions move forward and frankly

the largest manufacturer of ghost guns, polymer 80, was shut down after we made those required changes. we made them go through licensing and background checks just like any other gun dealer. so it's a huge priority and we also know that those guns are leading to a lot of deaf and harm across our country. i want to congratulate you and baltimore a peeing -- i want to congratulate you in baltimore. >> with ai being such an important part of cybercrime, would you agree that we should be wary about efforts that lead to blanket restrictions on the regulation of ai as it dries and feels he cybercrimes? gemma i'd agree with that. ai has just been poured fuel on the fire cybercrime. >> thank you, mr. chairman and i appreciate the witnesses being here.

before i started serving in this role, i spent 12 years as a state-level law enforcement official as a prosecutor and before that i was a local prosecutor or a municipal court. nobody's talked about music -- municipal court but a lot of these rito crimes wind up in city courts around the country and they are different animals from state courts are federal courts. i've got a friend who was a career federal law enforcement official and has later in his career become a state level law enforcement person. when i was attorney general my state we turned some federal money back because it is just a pain in the neck to deal with all the requirements. let me do my job. i don't need help. i don't want to partner with the feds. i just want to do my job. in this fellow called me the other day and said i'm on the stateside. i have a new appreciation for how difficult even while intended federal actions can be

in some of this. mr. wickham, you talked about aggregating offenses. i took your testimony to be how that conversation usually unfolds which is if you have someone that steals three different little amounts over a fixed period of time within a window, you add them up and you get a bigger crime. we use to deliberately charge misdemeanors even if it was a felony amount because you could get time in county jail for a misdemeanor but you were going to get probation for the low level felony. my point is is it is a little more complicated. my question for you on aggregation -- have you had any discussions or thoughts on a different type of aggregation? is there a benefit to having a conversation about whether aggregating repeated state crimes, stealing -- should at

some point become a freestanding federal offense so you could get repeat offenders that do a lot of small things in the federal system? >> that is a great question and i appreciate your perspective. being in a room with people like you and hearing you say that things are little more complicated, there is a little more nuance, are the best way to pass information for policymakers, from prosecutors to our small business members so i really appreciate that. i think what underlies your concern is that often times we are seeing these networks that are so broad that they can come up with very small amounts of people, be able to get multiple jurisdictions not only in the state but outside the state and is very federal aspect to it.

we recently had an arrest in california where there were just nine people hitting one specific big box retailer 600 times. and that is a valid question as to -- are we getting to a point where there needs to be some sort of national crime and we support the the combating organized retail crime act to have a larger federal role here so that we can put the evolving nature of these types of crimes whether it be just nine whether it be nine or 900 people under a federal lands. and get the right size the loss to the problem at hand. so, that's something that i really hope that the upcoming debate will bring out. >> there is a time. i believe most of these ought to

be dealt with state and local and the fed ought to stay out of them. you have to figure out those that are better dealt with the federal tools and give the federal authorities the tool to do the job as opposed to having to rely on state folks to find them, stop them and ship them to the feds and maybe you get attention and maybe you don't get attention. pick a lane, eight? -- right? on that point, one of the things we did in kansas, we got tired of dealing with our friends in washington and we went to the regional enforcement authorities and a number of federal law enforcement agencies out of kansas city they were close for us. we sat down, we had a great working relationship and we said, you guys come across a whole lot of low-level crimes with the course of the work of the u.s. attorney's office that will never take a because they're not big enough. can you ship them to us so that we will prosecute them under state law which is the key, do not make it a federal prosecutor

but your law enforcement guys have investigated them and we got a lot of convictions. is there any merit in that? >> i'd like to first commend a lot of -- kansas for their leadership in wichita had a big problem with retail crime in the last few years and kansas has gotten them the resources. and then secondly having this conversation, homeland security investigation -- >> the gentleman's time is up to >> that is critical. and they have regional offices that can be helpful, resources. >> the gentleman's time is up. i now recognize miz good planner from the great state of new hampshire for five minutes. >> thank you to our witnesses for being here today for this really important hearing. i came here to congress to make our country more safer and prosperous and free. those three pillars were together by its public safety is really at the core and the root of the what we have to be doing here.

and before i came to congress i serve for years of the department of justice, and one of the things with all due respect to county and local officials and the utmost respect because what i see every day in this work is how mission-critical our state, local, county partners are and mr. wickham you pointed this out partially in her testimony. mr. jackson, you have as well, and i appreciate all of your service in government and your testimony today. but what i saw at the justice department and what i see in this job is partnership. if there is a through line in this hearing what i'm hearing from all of you partnership is at the core of how we combat crime in this country. whether it is partnership across government at every level and across branches, partnership with the private sector, partnership is key. i want to start by asking about our partnerships with local law enforcement and mr. wickham, you pointed out in your testimony

just how important county attorneys are as gatekeepers. when i was at the justice department, i saw how these federal dollars really make a huge difference in the work that law enforcement is able to do. we are asking them to do more with less every single day. and so these grant programs, i served on the arm servicing committee and would look at the budget of the department of defense, nearly $1 trillion and the department of justice's budget, they are being asked to do more with less every day. so i am deeply concerned about the millions of dollars in cuts we have seen already this year to really successful and important department of justice programs and billions of dollars in proposed cuts for next year's budget. mr. wickham, can you speak to what you've seen you in your work about the importance of federal programs, as much as they need to be improved, how important they are as a lifeline to local law enforcement? >> i think they are very important. our numbers back that up, that

when you are asking why is this a persistent problem over time? and people point back to the fact that it is underreported. why is it being underreported? our data shows the majority of small businesses and retailers are not reporting it because there is a lack of law enforcement support. so, if, as -- he's testified to, if there is not an accompanying law enforcement presence there, that is going to discourage the reporting of this and then we will just see repeat offenders and then that repeat offender build up the frustration and increases the risk of violence. so, resources is really something that we're talking to both our small businesses and

our larger retailers is, something that is almost always brought up first, second or third. >> i appreciate that. i want to ask you to follow up on some of the earlier discussion about how we measure the impact of cybercrimes. by some estimates, cybercrime is costing us more than $10 trillion a year. does that sound like a fair ballpark estimate? do we have a way of estimating the overall dollar cost? >> i don't know that we do. right now we are seeing this conflagration of cybercrimes scams and fraud. and traditionally those of the dose -- those have been handled by financial services institutions and by corporations and even by small businesses. but if you start to peel the onion you will see some of the some bad actors, like the ccp behind things we would've considered just a run-of-the-mill scam is now highly highly organized and has a nationstate actor at the top of the food chain. so, it is hard to estimate. >> if you had to give guidance

to this committee on the most significant thing we could do to combat cyber crime what is your recommendation? >> finding this leverage points to get them to engage before the bad thing happens. whether that is through the sba or other partnerships, finding a way to encourage more small businesses to engage, the owner themselves and not to think, my i.t. guy has a handle because they might not. >> i'll be following up with questions for the record but note that the cybersecurity information sherry act of 2015, an important provision of law that is allowed for some measure of information sharing is set to expire at the end of january and we would very much welcome all of the witnesses assistance in thinking through how we make sure that we keep that critical lifeline of informational life. >> that is very important. >> gentlelady yields back could recognize mr. jack from the great state of georgia for five minutes. >> as a freshman, one of the benefits of being a fresh and is

you get to ask questions last and as a component of that, i would welcome a chance mr. wickham for you, i do not know if you want to continue on with what you were discussing with my colleague mr. schmitt on some of those recommendations right before the time expired but give you an opportunity to further your comments there. >> i appreciate your service, mr. jack. with that very good partnership, we had very good partnerships with the state of georgia and your attorney general combating retail crime. i like to joke that he was on the precipice on the issue of verified transactions online. georgia had that in place before the federal act which we worked very hard to pass. the issue of coordination is seen so basic, but when you and i have a discussion about jurisdiction, which is so critical in this area, people's eyes roll back. you know?

it is just that we have the fiefdoms. what is the rule of congress, what is the rule of the banker, and what is the role of the prosecutor? we really need to hit this particular problem at all angles. and so we support the bill to coordinate efforts at the national level and also those individual decisions by prosecutors on what offenses they are going to charge, because those are equally important to this fight. >> if i could shift. i'm curious as we close this hearing, it's important for us to hear from someone like yourself who's directly impacted by this and welcome any closing thoughts as to how best our committee can serve you and serve our constituents combating these retail crime tests. >> thank you, congressman p had having you here speak on behalf of my brothers and sisters, making everybody aware of the

situation is great. i think we need to put pressure on the states to have common sense laws. i would argue that what we had tried in the past has not work. we were trying to help people but by pretending to help we actually hurt not only them but the communities and the small businesses. we just need to make sure that any crime that is -- is considered a crime no matter how small to be able to enforce it so we have some type of stability that will then create a common sense of community for people, for businesses, and everybody that wants to do good and live a happy healthy life. >> it's interesting, i will pivot back to mr. wickham. you mentioned the enforcement mechanism. i find in my community that i serve, a lot of the local mom-and-pop shops, they suffer from that threshold if it is under $1000 or $500, rarely do you see that prosecutor. i'm curious, in addition to the bill what other ideas you may

have for us to navigate that because invariably it seems like the criminals figure out what the threshold is and they, they pursue their illicit theft right under it. >> we've talked a lot about aggregation of laws, and that is something we are very happy to see increased action by the states to allow either the attorney general or another prosecuted official to get these multiple offenders, who deliberately cross jurisdictional lines because they know one, they can either steal below a minimum or two just do what appears to be a one-off in a particular jurisdiction. but, going back to the example of california, where nine individuals hit a big box retailer 600 times, there's a point at which you have to say, these are not one-offs. and we need to work together to

aggregate these offenses so that we can take these people off the streets. >> thank you very much. i want to give you an opportunity in the closing seconds to offer closing thoughts. >> one of the ideas that we've actually considered, or question we have asked ourselves is should collectively small businesses around the country be considered critical national infrastructure sector? i think there might be some merit into looking into that concept. because when you look at small businesses holistically they are an enormous part of our gdp and our employment and drive a huge part of the economy. so i think looking at them like critical national infrastructure, like review utilities and financial services sector and all the other sectors, might be one way to combat the problem, of cybercrime affecting small businesses. >> thank you all, and mr. jackson thank you for your testimony paid work to the white house, so we can have familiarity with that. i will yield back to our

distinguished chairman, mr. schmitt. >> the chair now recognizes mr. cisneros for five minutes. >> thank you very much and i want to thank our witnesses for being here today. mr. wickham, welcome back. i'm your last individual, last set of questions you will get before we can wrap up. but, you know, i don't want to restate the numbers and data again that has been kind of mentioned throughout this hearing but simply say that when state and local governments focus on -- crime and gun violence and invest in it, there is a change. gun violence goes down and crime goes down. it does make a difference. unfortunately the trump administration has cut programs and diverted resources to fight gun violence and crime and instead has diverted those resources towards immigration. you know, towards targeting our

immigration communities. immigrant communities that are not only the workforce for many of these small businesses but they also shop at small businesses and for many of them, these immigrants are the entrepreneurs who have started thriving businesses in our communities. with that, i will get to my questions. mr. jackson, according to the gifford law center, multiple studies show a link between weakened public carry laws and crime rates, with an 11% increase in violent crimes after the states deregulate. as someone who has worked at both the federal level and at the community level, how do you respond to arguments that more guns equals less crime? >> well, all the studies that we have seen in recent history have shown that that is false. if you needed example you can look at what is happening in our southern states across the country. the states with the weakest gun laws and the least amount of resources to prevent violence

are seeing this harshest impact of violence and not just in cities but in rural communities we are losing veterans and our elder folks to moments of crisis after being armed and not having the resources to remove those firearms temporarily. and so, this is huge. we have to make sure we continue to build on progress to keep guns out of our public spaces and out of the hands of those who are most at risk or most vulnerable. and the states that are doing that are states that are getting results. states like massachusetts, new jersey, even california are seeing historic reductions because of the strong gun laws combined with resources. >> just expand on that, can you explain how weak gun laws in one state can increase shooting risks? >> d..c is a perfect example. we talked about the terrible incidents including the attacks on our armed services, but 95% of the funs-that arrived- guns that arrive in washington come from outside the city. the same as the same for the chicago. a third of guns come from

indiana. in a neighboring state with weak gun laws is a breeding ground. again, it is not just homicides but it also leads to other forms of violent crime such as robbery or theft or even retail crime. many of those guns are legally traffic. >> thank you. my grandfather was a world war ii veteran and came back from the world war ii used his v.a. benefits to start a small business, a market, unfortunately there was was a long time ago but unfortunately that story was robbed, and he became a victim of gun violence and died. i want to thank you mr. jackson for sharing your story. but, based on your understanding, what it -- what do survivors need most in the months and years after experiencing gun violence? >> we need victim services. we looked at when someone is shot the employer themselves, the costs for their medical feeds is upwards of 30,000

dollars. when i was shot, it cost me around $20,000 in hospital costs alone. but those victim service dollars are under siege. the trump administration has a ready cut $2 billion from the crime victims fund and in fact 24 states are now suing the trump administration because they do not have those funds to support victims of violent crime. we start with that as well as focusing on efforts to prevent violence, and then efforts to make sure we are holding those accountable who calls that crime. >> i thank you all again for being here today. thank you for your answers, and i yield back. >> gentlemen yields back then i also like to thank our witnesses. for being here today and for your testimony. without objection members have five legislative days to submit additional materials on written questions for the witnesses to the chair. which will be forwarded to the witnesses. i will ask the witnesses to play respond properly if that happens with no further business, without objection the committee is adjourned. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2025] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

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